In this podcast episode, Jude and I speak about the importance of considering neurodiversity, and neurodivergence, as a feature of the hard wiring of the system and not as a Part.
Below you will find the Youtube Video link and the auto-generated transcript
0:03 - 0:59hello again hi hi Jude hello here we are again here we are welcome to all the audience whether they're watching the video or listening to the podcast welcome to queer in ifs so today um we're going to talk about so the title for today is in an introduction to neurodiversity from an ifs perspective in particular neurodiversity is not a part yes yeah so as I read the title I think we it'd be good to start listing what counts as neurodiversity difference
0:57 - 1:47between neurodiversity neurodivergence and the main types of neurodivergence well let so I'll um try my best to remember because um Nick Walker again who we mentioned last time and we'll probably mention it every time and and their work on neuro queering um has some lovely definitions around this so neurodiversity is the natural diversity within humans of human Minds it is both innate and it is and and it is a neutral fact that we we have neurodiversity between us minds are different they are no no two minds are the same there's neurodiversity between two people like the eyes are different
1:42 - 2:34exactly yeah exactly and then um neurodivergent is having a style of cognitive functioning that diverges significantly from what is considered the norm and it's important to say here that that is also a construct is a societal construct of what is the norm what is a narrow band of what is the norm and then everything else outside of it and it's important to say that that's a construct because it also changes over time with what is or isn't um acceptable known um and then neurotypical is having a style of cognitive functioning that is more typical you're in more in that that
2:30 - 3:19middle group of um people who who function more or less similarly to each other although there will also be neurodiversity between any two people within that group of neurotypical yeah yes thank you Jude and I want to add to this definition maybe bring in a bit of my exposure or belonging to the neurodivergent community um because you know it's it's an Ever evolving an expanding um umbrella so um some of the words that are under this umbrella are diagnosis the M like OCD
3:18 - 4:05can be considered as a form of neurodivergence uh but I don't think it only it it it doesn't stop at brain functioning because think of Danos I have been hyper mobile forever and and to kind of think that hyper Mobility is considered a neuro diver form of form of neurodivergence it kind of took me a while yet it makes sense at some level that there is something inherent to my system and its structure that is different
4:03 - 4:44to to the norm or to the majority if you look at the word majority right to the and you could say the neuro majority as well because we're talking about neurocognitive functioning um does thank you for bringing up that point because we are not just talking about brains we are talking about systems as in systemwide um maybe variation in in in in our functioning whether that's our whether that's our neurology which which most um neuro Divergence is talking about but it can also be differences in the facia
4:42 - 5:38in the soft tissue of the body that make a difference foros yeah yes yes you were thinking about list you were saying about listing Well yeah I mean just just just to give some some names and I want to include the aspects that I maybe I resonate most with and therefore it's both to represent them but also to declare my biases because of course I see the world that live the world through my system right and therefore I would have my own biases which you know I want people to be aware of because um I'm providing information and I want people to take on whatever
5:36 - 6:18resonates with them I don't think that I've got it all completely you know like yeah sorted out or or you I'm not the ultimate wisdom here and I think that was something that Drew us more to this podcast format as well wasn't it that that this is conversations that we're not saying oh here's a here's a list and here's a definition and and that's it it's like these are identities these are neurology these are ways of living these are ways in which we interact with the world these are ways in which we are built and we we perceive and
6:15 - 7:01receive yeah and I think it's an aspect of queering like that we are inviting everybody to almost step into this unknown you know we we know what we have like and I we have an idea of what we want to talk about but this is like a bit of a quering in action you know we take these ideas we dissect them and we invite each other here you and Jude and I and everybody who's listening and watching to do the same to really think what is it that resonates with you what is it doesn't just by doing that you starting to CER information that we give you yeah for example
7:00 - 7:41yeah and I I really like what you were saying then um well what I'm taking from what you were saying then which is we're not saying we're right we're not saying we're the authority on this we're not we're not suggesting that for a moment we are we are quering here we are quering with you with each other with ourselves and with you yeah yes yeah so so yeah I might just want to talk about dyslexia a little bit as well again my understanding of it and my understanding of maybe um I mean I feel like I want to give you space for autism and ADHD if you want to talk about that should I
7:37 - 8:21absolutely do and that this is probably likely to be more than one episode so we've got time yes um so so yes so just going to let's just name a few then a few new types of new Divergence and then we can go into what we want to talk about more I thank you for bringing me back on track Jude I you know the the fs perspective on neurodiversity yeah but I think our stories would be great and I think we should definitely come back to that because we got we've both got we both have stories and they're both and
8:19 - 9:07they're very different and unique and at the same time there are some commonalities and things that I think will also resonate with people listening yeah yeah yeah so maybe let's put like placeholder there on our Journeys and the absence thank you the absence or not of diagnosis and even how sometimes people tend to not believe when you don't have a diagnosis which is my case like the kind of doubt and question you're kind of like well but I am what I am I don't have a piece of paper but that's still my experience yeah um yeah so yeah
9:03 - 9:57um so then it wouldn't be probably wouldn't be very good uh to listen to either but it also wouldn't would be great for us to just live everything but in terms of what what is under this neurodivergent umbrella you've got um maybe the more well-known um neurodivergences such as ADHD and you get we will we have to talk about diagnosis at some point but you know the the attention deficit hyperactivity disorder we've got um autism which in diagnostic terms is still known as autis autistic Autism Spectrum Disorder so we've got OCD obsessive compulsive disorder and
9:53 - 10:45um we have Tourette Syndrome Tourette dyslexia dyspraxia dis um HSP highly sensitive people umor there many more I wish I had pulled out the list earlier but yeah but we can we can we can link people to um more lists if you want to see them because some people do collect this stuff together but an important thing to say is that the umbrella is forever for growing for example C PTSD complex PTSD um some people identify as neurod divergent and the point is with that that that's a choice that people's Cho
10:43 - 11:45it's a choice whether you identify under this umbrella or not it's not something that is being put upon people it is it's an identity label that you can take up if you want to yeah yeah beautiful so would it be okay if I brought up the chapter I helped yeah definitely so um I want to really name the the the authors of a of a chapter from a book called all together us integrating the ifs model with key modalities communities and Trends um book edited by um Jenna R and the there is a chapter called embod ifs with neurodivergent
11:41 - 12:33clients and the two main authors are Andis Christiansen and Meg Martinez DTI with me and a colleague called Kim balling as reviewers of this chapter so I was lucky enough to be um involved in the in writing and creating this chapter and the the authors um offer this amazing Paradigm that um I cannot stop admiring somehow so they use the idea of a computer structure you know the computer has a hardware which is you know the hard physical things that you need to buy and the computer maybe you need the screen you know the
12:31 - 13:22you know the printer you know the physicality of the equipment you have and then there is the software which is all the programs that run uh and make sure that this Hardware is used and does what the software wants it to do um it's I think Jude correct me if I'm wrong but I think even Ellie Middleton uses this kind of this yeah Ellie Middleton who is uh a writer and many things in the UK she she's auADHD um she uses she uses the a a Mac versus PC analogy yes yes so she uses yeah you imagining if you running a Mac
13:18 - 13:55operating system on a Windows PC and how that and of so if if you don't know you're a Mac and you just keep trying to download the windows software all the time and everyone keeps telling you just download the software everyone else has downloaded the software but it just doesn't work for you and then one day you realize oh it doesn't work because I have a different operating system I'm still a computer I'm still hardware and software but I'm a different computer and that's fine as long as I can find the right software for me exactly yeah so so the moment
13:52 - 14:41 ifs writers introduced this topic then I started to think okay so how happened happens to neuro diversity and the neurodivergence and the author said that neurodivergence isn't a part and that's why the podcast episode because I think it's quite important to wear ifs in this way because one of the things that I think got a bit out of control perhaps in the enthusiasm around is that all of a sudden everything is a part and you know and people just for whatever reasons that I
14:39 - 15:37don't know because I'm very curious as to why people use certain language we might have another episode language they say oh well it's my yeah thank you oh that's my dyslexic part but that's my ADHD part and the implications are quite big do you want to say something about it Jud oh oh my goodness go on forever this well yes because what so if we're thinking about um our system of Parts self energy and parts and then we have maybe another part in our system that is labeling maybe some feature say
15:29 - 16:19I have I am ADHD I'm or DHD um um so I I have the time blindness that comes with ADHD and so I with the best will in the world can often be late for things or an hour early nothing in between and maybe I've got a part of me that feels kind of I maybe I'm ashamed or embarrassed about that so maybe I come to um meet cesio and I say I'm so sorry I'm late this ADHD part of me wasn't paying attention so what we're doing there is is creating an idea that this is a part that I first of all is a problem that I can don't I I don't like this part of me I want to fix
16:15 - 17:06it and of course it's not a part of me I'm for the rest of my life I'm going to be time blind that's okay clocks clocks are useful I don't sense the passing of time time in my body and I don't read numbers very well so these things combined mean it's it's it's always going to be that way but if I'm seeing this as this ADHD part of me that other parts of me want to fix or get rid of then how's that going to work therapeutically I can try I can try and get rid of this part but it's not it's not a part yeah
17:03 - 17:55and thank you for that it's very kind of I think it's very clear when you give an example like this one like this isn't the part of me but then again that's when we need to be very careful because in common language it is a part of who you are right if you don't use the AFS part it is yeah you are not just ADHD so it is an element of of who you are so in that sense of course ADHD is a part of you but when it comes to an ifs terminology you know a part is almost like an entity that exists within ourselves and to
17:52 - 18:38attach an element of neurodivergence that so we're basically saying that this part of ourself which is like the software parts are the software of our Hardware know they they move our body they use our brain so imagine that there are many little people instead of ourselves that need to compete almost at times to use the one body that we've got the one brain that we've got you know many Minds one brain many parts one body like many pieces of software you can have many you know we can have email software but and then you can have calendar software you've got um video
18:35 - 19:28conferencing software but it's one Hardware that the different software are running on so imagine the same happening in terms of ifs that there are many parts that maybe there are parts that want to get on time to a meeting a parts that really want to want to read the telephone number or a date and remember it like everybody else does I that's my experience and then these parts really wish they could do that and that they've got to use the hardware provided to them a hardware because remember neuro diversity and Ne Divergence are like a hardware feature that cannot accommodate those kind of functions that
19:26 - 20:15the parts would like the hardware to perform form so there are parts that might be extremely frustrated because the really want some things just the brain cannot hold compute in a way that supports it so it's important to differentiate that because a part is not responsible for the neurodivergence and the part is not and sometimes we can confuse parts with their burdens and we know that we don't get rid of Parts but their burdens can be shifted healed and therefore they can spontaneously take on other roles right
20:12 - 20:59yeah so then we need to be careful because sometimes by saying on my dyslexia part we almost we could imply that actually it's a burden that's carried by a part of me that I can easily get well not easy but I can ultimately absolutely and and you know and we all talk about our Journey's definitely on some other podcasts but yeah this for me you know for taking this time blindness thing you know what I can do is work with the burdens of the shame of being always being late or whatever and I can I can help that and I can also update the parts that are frustrated to
20:57 - 21:38let them know you know this is this is actually something that's not going to change it is a feature of of my system and we can update parts around that because Parts don't necessarily know that we're neurodivergence Parts don't know about that parts are often focused on other people and trying to do things like they do or wanting to fit in or all of these things which actually is really hard when you are when you have a brain a system not just a brain excuse me that works differently to this neurotypical Norm yeah so it's re Alesia and I always put this in every bit of training and
21:36 - 22:30everything that we do this this you know neurodiversity is not Parts it is not Parts Le it is the hardware the hard wiring as in that fabulous chapter it's the um it's oh no that's the I was I was jumping onto I'll wind back cuz we'll do that another time but it's the it's the yeah it's the it's the hardware and really if you're working with a therapist who doesn't understand that or is looking at neurodivergence as parts that's that's not going to help yeah therefore why we have this episode because one one of the many questions
22:27 - 23:13that we get that when we present is to kind of expand more on you know what do you mean that neurodivergence is not a part because again and they hear it in in many circles and I don't think I'm not always ready or it's not always my role to make people think and and reflect but the invitation to whoever is listening to this to our conversation today is is to really think you know because it might be that it really suits your experience to say that's my dyslexic part I mean who am I to say this is not your
23:12 - 24:00case yet me my invitation is to think about what you are thinking about your neurodivergence and that and the invitation is to think that it is a systemwide feature that isn't going to change and that your parts need support to understand and accept exactly absolutely and I think it would be fair to say that often you know yeah when you say in any setting neurodivergence is not a part it's the parts of people that come forward very quickly to say what do you mean
23:58 - 24:44because it's often parts of other people's systems that are going wait hang on a minute what if this isn't a part what do I do I mean how do I get rid of this how do I manage this I'm doing lots of air quotes right now um because we are societally told that these are problems that need to be fixed on many levels from sit still concentrate just try harder use a planner it's not that in here you know there are so many ways that our sensitivities our divergences are minimized or dismissed by other people so of course we do that in our
24:41 - 25:33own systems of course we do and that's the work you know to be compassionate to everything that is set up within us to maybe wish that this was something we could get rid of yes thank you for that because this is there is a party in there that would want to get rid of of neurodivergence and therefore it's a neuronormative burden they were're talking absolutely so in a way instead of kind of thinking that the a part is burdened and therefore for neurodivergent that whoever whatever part is labeling the system this way is labeling the
25:32 - 26:16system to have a part that's your Divergent that is the burden in itself the burden of neuron normativity is being expressed that way and everybody carries it even if you know we are kind of reading and making a lot of and seeking you know education on this topic and someone has to raise this issue that's what we're doing now so that maybe at least one of between the therapist and the client at least one of them can hold this dis awareness and this curiosity yeah so if if it becomes
26:12 - 26:54relevant to the pareu journey to bring it up as a discussion why are we labeling a part to be neurodivergent here what what who is doing this labeling who is yeah bringing up this agenda and that is a really good point as well. Also because it might not be the client who's labeling this as a part it could be the therapist and a very well-meaning therapist who maybe just just hasn't had much education around neurodiversity which is most therapists other than those who work in this field of specialization I would say because it's not common
26:52 - 27:41knowledge they might have well-meaning Parts in their systems looking to help a client to heal and fix that might say oh yeah that's that let's let's localize that and fix that problem yeah yeah yeah exactly they could be very well meaning like we we learn to listen to what people say and offer them Hearts language then we might do it for things that are not Hearts yeah yeah unfortunately yeah and I'm thinking also the power Dynamic you know like I think to me there's difference between a client using that language and as a therapist I might want to be very honoring that that's the experience and
27:39 - 28:20just bring curiosity to it if it's needed versus a therapist using that language because it's much harder for a client to challenge that yeah and that's why these conversations needed so that yeah absolutely and I we we need to wrap this up in a minute but but just to highlight that point that you just made at SEO cuz that's really important I might work with a client who is referring to some aspect of their neurodivergence as a part and what I'm not doing then is going in and going no no no you've got that wrong we're not here to correct people around any of this and it might the way that the
28:18 - 29:06language the client is using might speak to exactly these burdens that we're talking about these societal burdens so as therapists our job is still to remain curious it is not to go in and tell people that they're wrong it is to be curious why might that be SE like that in the system who's who's the one who's saying this um because yeah we we need to hold on to our curiosity yeah yeah thank you for that Jude curiosity about why is the client speaking this way and also as a therapist what am I doing about it you know am I feeling I cannot even bring get up or am I feeling you know scared
29:03 - 29:43that I will somehow shame my clients so I would go into teacher mode I definitely have a part like that it's a rich yeah but it's being in that place of being able to say to you Cent okay okay so this part of you this ADHD part or what whatever if that's the language they're using tell me more about that and let it unfold with your client let it unfold and be curious and stay curious and then you might get to that point of like oh actually you know what it's always been like this what if this is a feature of the system let's be curious about that you go yeah and also
29:41 - 30:27the other point that probably we need to wrap up yes is we do that that what I find is that with these everchanging names and definitions what I believe ADHD is might be different to what my client believes it is because their experience is different the mind so just be curious and see what the client means by that because maybe they have read the term they've been exposed to some information and they're labeling something that way but we're not talking about a systemwide thing but a specific episode The so we need to
30:24 - 31:20really be careful when the client uses it as therapists I think it's it would be a good sign of of cultural competence to to have the language yeah precisely used yes yeah yeah oh there's so much more we could say and we will we will at the same time at the same time time my Nemesis is um is a reality yes time is a reality so I think as usual should we just tell people where they can find yeah us yeah okay thank you so much for listening to us or watching us um we're having a great time doing this so hopefully it's coming across yes and Alessio where can
31:18 - 32:02people find out more about you and your work so um the best way to find about me is my website it's called therapy with alo.com you will find quite a few resources for free like blog articles about ifs in general what about you Jude how would I or would anybody find more about you to find out more about me you can come to my website which is less impressive than less needs a little bit of work oh there's a part um but is at anchored in.co and on both of our websites you can find links to some training that we've done before and some more of our neuroqueering work as well
31:58 - 32:11yes and more to come more to come so thank you for listening or watching thank you next one till next time bye
